Curse

zorlad · Jul 31, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

First of all, this is my first post- I am new to the forums.

I hope this is the place to post something like this but I'm not too sure...

A little background on me. I've been playing Guild Wars for the past 19 monthes and have at least some experience in playing all the professions. I've playing Guild Battles, Alliance Battles, Team Arena, Random Arena, Zaishen Challenge, Zaishen Elite and others... But for today my main concerns are with Competitive Missions- mainly Fort Apsenwood and other similar places where characters will often find themselves having to fight without the aid of their allies. More importantly the usage of blocking stances. This brings up an often overlooked facet of Class Balancing. Sure when it comes to team play like Guild Battles, everything is organized and everyone has a role but in PUG games most characters will have to rely on their own profession and skill sets to survive. Now I don't mean to offend any players

or bash any classes

but I am merely sharing my opinions:
--------------------------------------------------------
Comparing the Warrior's stances to Ranger's stances

Warriors are "the tank" according to the guildwars instructions manual; therefore, it would make sense that being the tank, the warrior would have the best defensive stances. However, sadly this is not the case. You see each and every warrior defensive stance have shortdraws- things to balance them out and make them fair; however, only a few of the many ranger blocking stance have such a thing. For instance, Bonetti's Defense, Defensive stance and Wary stance ends when you use a skill... Disciplined stance ends when you use an adrenaline skill... Shield stance one of the few warrior stances that do not end whilst using a skill; however, it snares you by 33% movement speed which is critical for melee oriented professions to catch running foes and requires you to wield a shield making it unusable for hammer warriors... Finally, most warrior stances require Energy! Warriors are a profession built around the use of adrenaline, hence their low energy and energy regeneration. In Fort Aspenwood conditions and hexes are spread like wildfire and when warriors must use what little energy they have on stances then they will be timid about bringing any hex or condition removal to keep themselves alive. In Fort Aspenwood, especially playing as a Luxon your chances of getting a monk are about 1 in every 4 games so most players bring condition/hex removal skills along to keep themselves alive. Warriors are viewed in most cases as easy prey for rangers and spellcasters because they rarely have a way of unsnaring themselves and the only heals they have are a 2.0 second cast and one that requires you to hit enemies in melee to build adrenaline first. Kiting is a common method of easily killing, dispiriting and frustrating melee characters in Fort Aspenwood. This is fine, it is part of the fantasy RPG theme- ranged and spellcaster classes fight from range!
However, what has become increasingly distrubing to me in the past few weeks are my awareness of how most Rangers are able to kill warriors in melee! They do not even bother to kite because they know the warrior is helpless to their superior and many long blocking stances and blinding skill. They are even resilient to any conditions with the new update to Antidote Signet- which now removes any one condition along with all blindness, poison and disease. What frustrates me the most is how a ranged profession, commonly declared the best profession (sometimes "pimpest") in the game can out melee a warrior. This hardly seems like balanced professions. To specify all warrior stances last 10 seconds or less with 12 Tactics. Meanwhile Whirling Defense (a common "perma blocking" skill) will last for 18 seconds with 12 expertise, cost about 5 energy and even has a possitive effect (unlike the warrior stances which all have downsides to them) of dealing 10 damage to all adjacient foes whenever you block a projectile attack. Hmm... lets take a look at some of the other ranger stances shall we? Lightning Reflexes not only gives you 75% block for 10 seconds (and does NOT end when you use a skill) but also increases your attack speed by 33% for the duration! So wait!? It is Frenzy (without downside) + Bonetti's Defense (without downside)? Escape not only grants the user a 75% block rate but also increases movement speed by 33%! I though a skill like escape would be meant to give a ranger an escape rather than a perma blocking skill that allows hims to gun down enemies in melee. The only defenses against it that warriors have in their possession are Warrior's Cunning (which costs a whopping 10 energy for the already energy depraved warrior profession and Wild Blow which drains them of all their adrenaline and damage capabilities once their blocking stance goes down. In which case the ranger will almost always have a second stance handy. Now you get the point.
The way I see it Rangers are a ranged profession and should therefore use their stances for kiting and getting away from melee range. If you want stances that allow you to fight from melee then your secondary profession should be warrior. I propose a few skill changes:
Defensive Stance:
Requires 6 Strikes of Adrenaline
Cooldown: 6 seconds
(1...7 seconds) You have a 50% chance to block.
Changes: Defensive Stance no longer ends when you use a skill- similar to that of the current rangers stances, however to balance it, it grants only a 50% chance to block instead of the 75% and no longer grants the extra +24 armor bonus. Its cooldown is the same as "Fear Me!" and requires adrenaline to more realistically match the warrior's other skills.
Disciplined Stance:
Requires 6 Strikes of Adrenaline
Cooldown: 6 seconds
(1...5 seconds) You have a 50% chance to block and +24 armor.
Changes: Disciplined Stance no longer ends when you use an adrenaline skill; however, its blocking rate has been lowered to 50% to make for more fair gameplay and it retains its +24 armor bonus to make up for its smaller duration than Defensive Stance.
Shield Stance:
Requires 6 Strikes of Adrenaline
Cooldown: 6 seconds
(1...7 seconds) You have a 50% chance to block. No effect unless you have a shield equipped.
Changes: Shield Stance drops the snaring effect because it is too high a price to pay for a melee profession who is constantly chasing down fleeing foes. This skill still requires you to equip a shield.
Deflect Arrows:
Requires 5 Energy
Cooldown: 10 seconds
(1...7 seconds) You have a 50% chance to block projectile attacks.
Changes: no longer ends when you hit with an attack, its blocking has been lowered to 50%. The only warrior blocking stance that required Energy to use. This skills is built directly to fight ranged professions and therefore manytimes under the effects of snares (especially against cripshot rangers) you will never get the chance to build adrenaline to use skills so energy is vital to this skill's success.
Bonetti's Defense:
Requires 8 Strike of Adrenaline
Cooldown: 6 seconds
(5...10 seconds) You have a 50% chance to block. Gain 1 energy for each melee attack blocked.
Changes: the energy gain from the previous Bonetti's Defense is too high as it allows a character (not necessarily a warrior) to regain their full energy bar in a matter of seconds. This skill no longer ends when you use a skill but its blocking rate has been lowered to a solid 50%.
Notes: even though most warrior skills now require adrenaline they will not be able to be spammed with "For Great Justice!" and skills of that sort because whislt in cooldown, skills do not gain adrenaline. So you must wait the full 6 seconds before you can start building that stance up again.
And now time for the Rangers...
Escape:
Requires 5 Energy
Cooldown: 12 seconds
(1...7 seconds) You move 33% faster and have a 75% chance to block. Ends when you use an attack skill.
Changes: True to its name it is meant as a kiting stance. It allows the ranger to block and increases movement speed at the same time! It even allow them to use non attack skills like Troll Unguent, traps, and Touch skills. You can still attack while its on; however, ends when you use an attack skill and its block rate has been kept the same to make up for it because it is an Elite.
Lightning Reflexes:
Requires: 10 Energy
Cooldown: 30 seconds
(5...10 seconds) You attack 33% faster and have a 50% chance to block. Ends when you target a foe with a skill.
Changes: What was arena net thinking making this an IAS and Blocking skill at the same time with no down side?! This skill still allows the use to attacks even increases the attack speed by 33% but its blocking rate has been lowered to 50% and ends when you use an attack skill or any skill that targets a foe (such as Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite) to balance it. This skill was extremely unbalanced and could only effectively be used by the Ranger profession because it requires expertise. It allowed Rangers to sit and spam Burning Arrow and Distracting Shots at a helpless melee professions in Fort Aspenwood.
Whirling Defense:
Requires: 10 Energy
Cooldown: 60 seconds
(8...18 seconds) You have a 75% chance to block. Deals 5...10 damage to adjacient foes whenever you block a projectile attack. Ends when you target a foe with a skill.
Changes: It still lasts for its extremely long duration and keeps its high block rate and AOE damage; however, has been changed to end when you target a foe with a skill. This is to balance out the Touch Rangers who will be nearly unaffected by the changes to the other two above stances. In addition is still allows for the use of skills that do not target foes such as troll unguent and gives you a solid blocking shroud to run to your allies or tank a mob of melee professions like Luxon Warriors.
Zojun's Haste/Dodge
Requires: 5 Energy
Cooldown: 30 seconds
(5...10 seconds) You move 33% faster and have 27...65% chance to block projectiles. Ends if you attack or if you target a foe with a skill.
Changes: It is already fairly balanced for what a ranged profession is expected to do however, like Whirling Defense it too ends with the targeting of a foe.
Dryder's Defense
Requires: 5 Energy
Cooldown: 60 seconds
(5...10 seconds) You gain 50% chance to block attacks and 34...55 armor against elemental damage. Ends when you target a foe with a skill.
Changes: This skill is powerful in that it not only gives you superior defense to melee but also superior defense to most spellcasting. But because of its average duration and long cool down it should still allow the use of normal attacks. It will end with the use an offensive oreinted skill.
Natural Stride
Changes: None whatsoever. It already has a balanced presentation by not granting an impossibly high block rate and ends when become hexed or enchanted. Meanwhile its one of the few ranger stances that can be utilized effectively by other professions.
Final Notes: It is in my opinion that a 75% block rate is too high. With this ratio it would seem that a melee character (or any other for that matter) could land a blow in 1 in every 4 or so tries but this is rarely the case. Characters will often go six, seven even as high as ten swings without landing a single blow. This is devastating for warriors as they cannot use one of their heals or any skills without adrenaline and is especially devastating to hammer warriors whose attack speed is one swing every 1.75 seconds. Rangers will still be very adequate in taking of melee classes as they still have kiting skills such as Pin Down, Crippling Shot, many movement inceases and blocking stances as well as Throw Dirt for a blind. They even have antidote signet to remove crippling/bleeding/deep wounds from themselves. It is in my opinion that very few skills should have as high as 75% chance of blocking. This is very overpowering even to Assassins who might never be able to get off an attack chain.
The other day our PUG (pick-up-group) in Fort Aspenwood complained that we had 3 warriors. They stated that warriors are a crutch unable to do much of anything in PvP. And then went on to declare we would lose and even a couple players left. They cannot deal large amounts of damage like Elementalist. They do not have to Blocking or Survivability of Rangers. They have practically no defense against any condtions or hexes (blindness from steam is become ever more common in the game today) and must run up into a large crowd of enemies to do damage which in most cases prevents them from being able to take out mines, turtles, or gates by themselves. I feel as if you could at least look over the changes I suggested and considered them I would mean a lot to me and many of the frustrated warriors playing the Luxons I know in Fort Aspenwood.
I thank you sincerely for your time and patience.

Snow Bunny · Jul 31, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

When you have Chop Chop the Panda frenzying on you, you will wish he were a ranger with block stances.

/notsigned

Abedeus · Jul 31, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

When you have Chop Chop the Panda frenzying on you, you will wish he was a ranger with block stances.

/notsigned

Actually, if Panda was frenzying on you, you wish you were elsewhere.

/notsigned

dumb suggestions are dumb.

luminoth · Jul 31, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Join Date: Jun 2007

Quote:

I am new to the forums.

So Defensive Stance and Shield Stance are exactly the same, only you need a shield for Shield Stance?
Anyway, most suggestions are bad.

Jetdoc · Jul 31, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorlad

More importantly the usage of blocking stances. Warriors are "the tank" according to the guildwars instructions manual; therefore, it would make sense that being the tank, the warrior would have the best defensive stances.

This is where the OP is off-base. Warriors are meant to be damage dealers, and not damage absorbers. They already have high armor, so adding an additional blocking skill or two to them is a bit overkill. Warriors are best suited for stances that increase their attack speed to capitalize on their superior damage output.

Rangers, on the other hand, are more for condition spreading and interrupting. As a result, they can afford to carry these blocking stances to make sure that they don't get distracted from these two very important duties.

If you look at it through that lens, you'll realize why the warrior defensive stances are DESIGNED to be weak.

Ultima pyromancer · Jul 31, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

This is where the OP is off-base. Warriors are meant to be damage dealers, and not damage absorbers. They already have high armor, so adding an additional blocking skill or two to them is a bit overkill. Warriors are best suited for stances that increase their attack speed to capitalize on their superior damage output.

Rangers, on the other hand, are more for condition spreading and interrupting. As a result, they can afford to carry these blocking stances to make sure that they don't get distracted from these two very important duties.

If you look at it through that lens, you'll realize why the warrior defensive stances are DESIGNEDto be weak.

I see your point, but they weren't originally designed to be that weak. What about 2 or 3 years back when stance warriors just sat and soaked thedamage up? Warriors damage is minimal compared to all other classes. I get what your saying but Warriors used to be like that, then they got hit by the armor nerf

- Knights armor doesn't stack (not sure if i did if the first place but meh)
- Absorption Runes only work against physical damage and are no longer global ( Remember them being 100k, i wonder why they plummeted in price)
- Skills that give armor buffs no longer stack over + 25 armor (unless its like from one skill that gives + 40)

remember Watch Yourself and Dolyak Signet stacking? That was an effective way of negating most damage just with 2 skills. Throw in Bonetti's Defense and hey thats 75% chance to block Physical attacks and you gain 5 energy when you do block. Not forgetting you take x less damage from all sources from Knights armor and Superior Absorption. Pair all that with a Monk skill such as healing hands. So your negating pretty much anything being thrown at you in moderation and what does get through, Healing Hands quickly patches up with a 29 health heal every time you are hit. So i think warriors were just a little overpowered..

Thats why everybody and their moms had a W/Mo and it's also why the warrior has been dulled down a hell of a lot. Maybe they might split the armor buff thing to PvP and PvE versions... You never know lol.

Now thats PvE, if Fort Aspenwood is what you are concerned with then forget the word "Tank"

Tanks do not work in PvP Purely because (Most) people are not stupid enough to all attack the warrior while they are getting face-planted by an Elementalist or Necromancer. Good warriors take damage dealing skills such as Eviscerate. I don't know why a warrior would even consider bringing stances for PvP. All the other player needs to do is:

"Player 1 Uses Bonetti's Defense"
"Player 2 Stops Melee attacking"

"Player 1 Uses Riposte"
"Player 2 Stops Melee attacking"

"Player 3 comes along and Uses Spiteful Spirit/ Empathy/ Insidious Parasite/ Any other anti Melee Skills"
"Player 1 Keeps attacking because he is a warrior in PvP, therefore he is invincible!"

The reason places like Fort Aspenwood DON'T work is purely because, Guild Wars is not about 1v1. Every Profession has a counter. Which is why it is so team based. There are no issues with warriors in HA, TA, RA.. Just the missions that were poorly thought up.. No offense if thats what you enjoy doing.

$0.02

/Notsigned
Warriors are the LAST thing on the list of PvP changes atm

Flame on

Snow Bunny · Jul 31, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Warriors damage is minimal compared to all other classes.

Wait, what?

121212121212

Tyla · Jul 31, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Wait, what?

121212121212

Saying Warriors are the worst class for damage is like saying "I don't understand a single thing about this game's mechanics!"

Oh, and er... /Notsigned. Reasons are mentioned.

I Phoenix I · Jul 31, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

OMWTFail post. Basically you just want Warriors to have Ranger stances and Rangers to have Warrior stances...

There wouldn't be a point in bringing a stance on a Ranger anymore as Rangers have crap damage and have to rely on their attack skills to help out the team. No attack skills = useless Ranger.

/notsigned

isamu kurosawa · Jul 31, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorlad

Warriors are "the tank" according to the guildwars instructions manual

Stopped Reading OP there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Warriors damage is minimal compared to all other classes.

Ok, you keep believing that and i'll keep tearing enemies a new hole in gw with my warrior damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

- Absorption Runes only work against physical damage and are no longer global ( Remember them being 100k, i wonder why they plummeted in price)

Actually, the number one reason was to do with a fix to their drop rate, which was apparently bugged from the start. Notice how you get much more drop than back before factions release?

Trenixz · Jul 31, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I don't agree with the nerfs to ranger stances, but no warrior in his right mind is going to carry one of the block stances as they are right now. They should remove the ends on skill and find some other way to balance them.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jul 31, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

balance doesn't require that similar skills be equally powered between classes. classes have strengths and weaknesses; warriors do domage, rangers have better survivability.
also, warriors are not tanks. no class is intended to be a tank.

mistokibbles · Jul 31, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Ranger stances are fine. Just bring defile defenses or wild blow
/notsigned

N1ghtstalker · Jul 31, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

MY EYES
THEY'RE BURNING T_T
it's all fine
/notsigned

zwei2stein · Jul 31, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Hilarious if unintentional.
Lame if intentional.

Parson Brown · Jul 31, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

AFAIK absorption runes are still global.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jul 31, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson Brown

AFAIK absorption runes are still global.

the date is 31 July 2008.

ups

edit: hopefully you meant global as in they still reduce all physical domage regardless of what piece of armor is hit (which they still do). when the op said global he was referring to how they used to prevent all kinds of domage, not just physical

edit2: also, at op, anet doesn't balance the game around unorganized pvp. the game would be pretty crappy if they did.

pamelf · Jul 31, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

The OP needs to learn to structure before I'll read any of that. Something that long needs to be structured...I got lost somewhere in the third line...

Kanyatta · Aug 01, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorlad

n Fort Aspenwood conditions and hexes are spread like wildfire and when warriors must use what little energy they have on stances then they will be timid about bringing any hex or condition removal to keep themselves alive. In Fort Aspenwood, especially playing as a Luxon your chances of getting a monk are about 1 in every 4 games so most players bring condition/hex removal skills along to keep themselves alive.

This is where I stopped reading, because of content, and the OP's inability to find the Enter key.

If you're running out of energy because you are spamming stances, you are playing the game wrong, and if you are a warrior getting e-denied, the opposing mesmers are playing the game wrong.

Also, wammo with hex removal and condition removal is one of the most laughed-at things in the game.

Balancing the game around Fort Aspenwood is a dumb idea, as others have stated above.

Most players bring a self-heal, if anything. I rarely see any non-monks bring condy/hex removal to CM's.

Edit: I am very retarded.

Bowstring Badass · Aug 01, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Also for the crash on absorption runes they are no longer global and affect every type of damage. Being able to reduce any type of damage by 3 was pretty good.